Halifax V Widnes - Press Cutting

[cheadleviking]

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/halifax-rlfc/Halifax-v-Widnes-Vikings-We39re.5368218.jp

[manxviking]

You know what I find sad about that? "We need to win for the licences" - or whatever. The RFL are ruining this sport. A Cup is a Cup, and every team in it should want to win it because there is only so much silverware to be won. I will never accept treating any cup competition lightly. It's as if everyting now depends on clubs getting to SL as if there is no life outside (which is what the RFL wants us to believe). Stuff SL if that's the attitude.

Let's win the NRC because we want to be winners.



Sorry - had one of me turns there.

[Sunny]

You know what I find sad about that? "We need to win for the licences" - or whatever. The RFL are ruining this sport. A Cup is a Cup, and every team in it should want to win it because there is only so much silverware to be won. I will never accept treating any cup competition lightly. It's as if everyting now depends on clubs getting to SL as if there is no life outside (which is what the RFL wants us to believe). Stuff SL if that's the attitude.

Let's win the NRC because we want to be winners.



Sorry - had one of me turns there.

Don't be sorry - you are perfectly correct.....

[Sandgroper]

Only one argument!  I would have said 'the RFL have ruined this sport'!!!!!

In truth it was Murdoch & Sky who ruined it by trying to become the owner of the sport worldwide.  They saved many of our clubs from bankruptcy but I still feel that it might have been a better course in the long term. We may still have been in charge of our own destiny at least.

The end result is that we have no meaningful International system now.  No regular touring sides, no challenges to keep our game up to the mark and, if we are honest, no respect from the southern hemishpere because we sold out.

[cheadleviking]

Manxviking you are correct in what you say, it appears now that clubs have taken their eye off the boil so to speak to achieve targets, now targets have to be met for clubs to be successful but the RFL are dampening the sport a little as clubs are realising without SL rugby there is only a medium to low chance of survival.

Hopefully from what we are seeing at work at the moment is a lot of positives although it will be early to mid next year before there is any large signs of growth, hopefully widnes and the other championships clubs have the backing of there funders to ride out the storm!

All that said it has done what is been feared by you and many other supporters half heartedly competing to tick boxes rather than trying to win as much as you can and get that cabinet full of silverware!

[Peter]

Don't be sorry - you are perfectly correct.....

Absolutely.  The RFL to a man should be regarded as Barnpots -- a Yorkshire term which they should understand.

[Bruce Champion]

Hang on a minute, whilst I agree with the sentiment, times have changed and this 'criteria' could well save us in the long run when the likes of Toulouse and Gateshead are looking for a franchise.

I don't think the RFL have made an error at all when they have laid down criteria for Championship clubs with ambition, because otherwise we'd all be saying 'what's the point' when there were no guidelines.  We're all working from the same page and I think that's a good thing.

It's a business now and it's been said on this board for years that Widnes needs to be run like a business.  The last 2 years has had more off the field ideas than the previous 10 so we're heading in the right direction.  Coaches and owners can worry about the criteria, I'd think all the players are looking at is reaching a cup final, albeit the Northern Rail Cup!

[manxviking]

Hang on a minute, whilst I agree with the sentiment, times have changed and this 'criteria' could well save us in the long run when the likes of Toulouse and Gateshead are looking for a franchise.

I don't think the RFL have made an error at all when they have laid down criteria for Championship clubs with ambition, because otherwise we'd all be saying 'what's the point' when there were no guidelines.  We're all working from the same page and I think that's a good thing.

It's a business now and it's been said on this board for years that Widnes needs to be run like a business.  The last 2 years has had more off the field ideas than the previous 10 so we're heading in the right direction.  Coaches and owners can worry about the criteria, I'd think all the players are looking at is reaching a cup final, albeit the Northern Rail Cup!

Sorry but franchising will kill this sport off. Other sports have tried it and are back-tracking fast. Take away automatic promotion and relegation, you kill competition. People keep mentioning Australia. Who won the World Cup?

[Bruce Champion]

Sorry but franchising will kill this sport off. Other sports have tried it and are back-tracking fast. Take away automatic promotion and relegation, you kill competition. People keep mentioning Australia. Who won the World Cup?

That's not even an arguement, where do the New Zealand players play their domestic rugby?

May I ask which sports have tried it and are back tracking? 

[HelmetHead]

Franchises started in US sports and all the major sports are expanding from the NFL, who are playing at Wembley to a full house in October (when was the last non Challenge Cup Final game to fill Wembley in RFL), baseball has expanded, basketball has expanded and soccer is in big demand from a financial point of view if not from bums on seats.

All make huge amounts of turnover, the franchises are succesful in selling out games, there are huge waiting lsits for season tickets and this for a series of games which all came in to being around the turn of the 20th century.

You expand when there is a desire of fans to watch the game and you have the financial stability not when the ruling body just thinks "it would be nice to have a franchise in Wales for example", when there is no proof that people will watch.

Expansion in France was a good idea becuase the game is established in the South but as Saturday's result showed, without the Antipodean players France (i.e. Catalans) are rubbish. The same would happen to Wales if they played England or NZ or Oz.

Franchising is the way ahead but nobody should be given a certain timeframe because there is no Damacles sword hanging over people until year 3. It should be an open licence but reviewed on a season by season basis.

If Widnes get things right on and off the field, then I believe that we offer something only similar to a lot of other clubs but to many people think we have a God given right to be in. Since SL started we have spent more time out of SL than any other current SL team except for Catalans and Celtic, so why should we be in automatically. yes we have a nice ground and good history but we have been in a financial mess since the late 80's.

Let's win what we can over the next couple of years and make the powers that be say you know what we need Widnes in!

[manxviking]

That's not even an arguement, where do the New Zealand players play their domestic rugby?

May I ask which sports have tried it and are back tracking? 

Speedway which has introduced a relegation play-off and Ice Hockey (having to rebuild after most of the clubs quit because franchising brought disastrous financial consequences). Only ones I can think of still continuing is the Magners League (crowds in Wales well down on pre-regional era) and netball (which survives on tiny numbers). Franchising does not have a good history in the UK, and analogies with the US and Australia are misleading because they have much bigger fan bases.

In answer to your question, Kiwis play in both Australia and England. My point being not that the structure is better, but that they have better players. Premier grade in Australia is stronger than SL here and franchising won't solve that problem. In RU, the Magners League is treated as a joke almost, yet Wales and Ireland are dominating the international scene. Why? Because their players are better. Nothing to do with league structures. So I disagree entirely with you - my point is wholly valid. New Zealand won the World Cup, not because of the Australian system, but because they are better players playing at a high level. If you really think England will get better because of licensing you are sadly deluded. We are going backwards and unless we have more English players playing in the NRL, that will continue.

The RFU is actually strengthening P&R by strenghtening its second tier by making it full-time professional. Now whilst I don't think the sport suits full-time play, nevertheless they have recognised the need for fear of losing in the British sporting psyche. take that away and it is too easy to get in the comfort zone.

Look at the facts - crowds are down, viewing figures are down (there are other reasons for this, I accept). RL is increasingly marginalised in the media because only two clubs have the wherewithal to win anything and by taking away relegation, you take away a major interest. How many pages were spent talking about Newcastle, Middlesboroguh etc? It was a bad decision and even if Widnes do get a licence, I will continue to campaign against franchises.

Of course, all this is just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

[BEANO]

In any sport, most fans want to see their team perform at the highest level.

Rugby League fans are no different, and although we may disagree with a three year Licence review - we all want to get into SuperLeague.

Winning the NRC is nice to win any time, but we all know its more important now than ever.

I'm sure that if we do win it, we will do our best to retain it next year.

I'll  settle for the NRC, or a Grand Final appearance, or Wakefield going bust, or Hull KR going pear shape, or Salford Stadium falling down,

[Bruce Champion]

In answer to your question, Kiwis play in both Australia and England. My point being not that the structure is better, but that they have better players. Premier grade in Australia is stronger than SL here and franchising won't solve that problem. In RU, the Magners League is treated as a joke almost, yet Wales and Ireland are dominating the international scene. Why? Because their players are better. Nothing to do with league structures. So I disagree entirely with you - my point is wholly valid. New Zealand won the World Cup, not because of the Australian system, but because they are better players playing at a high level. If you really think England will get better because of licensing you are sadly deluded. We are going backwards and unless we have more English players playing in the NRL, that will continue.

Of course, all this is just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

A good post, and a lot of assumption on my opinion when I haven't really given mine, I was merely adding to the debate.

However, we need to look at why, as you put it, we won't improve unless we send English players to the NRL (which is a frachise league, therefore this is surely a contradiction?).  I also don't agree we are going backwards, you can add whatever statistics you want to side with your opinion, but if you look at the league, it's as even as it's been for years and it's only the last two weeks that Saints have pulled clear.  Another example of this is the likes of Michael Shenton/Joe Westerman/Tony Clubb/Ryan Atkins playing for England last week.  Their places were not taken by overpaid Aussies.  Salford may have even got an Aussie scrum half over and restricted Myler's game time, which tends to happen to a promoted club.  Now the Aussies won't disappear overnight, but more clubs are putting faith in their juniors, and it will make us a stronger game.  This cannot be judged over 6 months, it is a long term plan and I'm as gutted as the next man that we're not involved, but the glass wouldn't be half empty if we were.

[cheadleviking]

Throwing my penny in for what it is worth,although I cant remember exact figures but SL have a requirement for a certain number of players to earn less than £25k, they have a limit to the quota players then it would appear straightforward to increase the number of lower paid players (i.e younger not part-time) and decrease the number of quota players this with a pay structure/grading system for players who are earning £25k upwards e.g. 1 player upto £200k 3 upto £100k etc. Would control what wages were available in relation to the pay grade which should spread the mix fairly, there is nothing at the moment stopping any club paying what they want or how the cap is spread?

[manxviking]

A good post, and a lot of assumption on my opinion when I haven't really given mine, I was merely adding to the debate.

However, we need to look at why, as you put it, we won't improve unless we send English players to the NRL (which is a frachise league, therefore this is surely a contradiction?).  I also don't agree we are going backwards, you can add whatever statistics you want to side with your opinion, but if you look at the league, it's as even as it's been for years and it's only the last two weeks that Saints have pulled clear.  Another example of this is the likes of Michael Shenton/Joe Westerman/Tony Clubb/Ryan Atkins playing for England last week.  Their places were not taken by overpaid Aussies.  Salford may have even got an Aussie scrum half over and restricted Myler's game time, which tends to happen to a promoted club.  Now the Aussies won't disappear overnight, but more clubs are putting faith in their juniors, and it will make us a stronger game.  This cannot be judged over 6 months, it is a long term plan and I'm as gutted as the next man that we're not involved, but the glass wouldn't be half empty if we were.

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear - I don't think franchising will make one iota of difference to England improving. That of course is mere opinion. But if I am correct, then all the system will have done is drive support away from heartland clubs, drive more talented youngsters to other sports, especially RU, and weakend the financial base of clubs due to ill-timed expansion. Our clubs do not have the fan base or the finances to make such a system work properly.

 FWIW, I personally think that the franchised Ozzy league is its biggest weakness. It breeds a bit of complacency. But they get the crowds.

I wonder what would have happened had they suggested a "Super 10" competition based on new "regional" sides with the traditional and expansion clubs feeding in? Would it have worked? You could almost have the best of both worlds - kept the old P&R for the club competition whilst having an intense "franchised" league for the elite players.

Incidentally, the league may be more even this year, but I don't think it's as strong as a three or four seasons ago. It is good we have exciting youngsters coming through and I hope I am proved wrong, but I think that is incidental to the structure of the league personally.